53% vs 47% 2/17/2012 02:09
最近几个月occupy blah blah blah活动在美国各地翻来覆去。最经常看到的场面就是所谓的1% vs the 99%。 我不知到这些人是真傻还是假傻。the real numbers we should be talking about are the 53% vs the 47%. it's always easy to blame others for our own misfortune but at the end of the day it won't get us anywhere.


你填税表又发愁了吧,去墨西哥做慈善可抵税。还是做53%吧。
Quincy08 at 2/17/2012 08:40 快速引用
leefd :
最近几个月occupy blah blah blah活动在美国各地翻来覆去。最经常看到的场面就是所谓的1% vs the 99%。 我不知到这些人是真傻还是假傻。the real numbers we should be talking about are the 53% vs the 47%. it's always easy to blame others for our own misfortune but at the end of the day it won't get us anywhere.


To me, occupy wall street is more about how those big financial firms hijack the america and rip off people like u and me.
tutu at 2/17/2012 09:51 快速引用
You are right.

There is another phrase for this phenomenon: moral hazard.

When lazy, stupid and irresponsible people keep getting rewarded and make a good living that they don't deserve, and jump on the wagon of whining campaign the first moment they feel challenged, you know the society is heading to the wrong direction.
xiaoqiang at 2/17/2012 11:29 快速引用
Exactly!

xiaoqiang :
You are right.

There is another phrase for this phenomenon: moral hazard.

When lazy, stupid and irresponsible people keep getting rewarded and make a good living that they don't deserve, and jump on the wagon of whining campaign the first moment they feel challenged, you know the society is heading to the wrong direction.
pompano at 2/17/2012 12:25 快速引用
你说得这些数字挺对的。也就是说,99%又分成了53%的勤劳的人,和46%的懒人。

那么如果这百分比再稍微变化一下怎么办呢?比如说:46%的勤劳人,53%的懒人。那么一投票,岂不要乱了套了?

所以当务之急,可能还是要先团结一个再说,要么团结1%的人搞改革,要么团结46%的人搞变革。

倒是发现美国佬挣的钱到哪里去了,原来是要还债去的呀。那么,钱就是给收利息的人拿走了。怪不得圣经说收利息是恶魔呢。这样看来,国内读大学那是轻松很多了,才几千块钱。
了因 at 2/17/2012 15:31 快速引用
support 感动

Couldn't have said it better myself.


pompano :
Exactly!

xiaoqiang :
You are right.

There is another phrase for this phenomenon: moral hazard.

When lazy, stupid and irresponsible people keep getting rewarded and make a good living that they don't deserve, and jump on the wagon of whining campaign the first moment they feel challenged, you know the society is heading to the wrong direction.
leefd at 2/17/2012 23:42 快速引用
其实如果你把缴税低于10%的加上不缴税的,早已经超过50%。 所以你可以想象这个国家的法律和制度会朝哪个方向发展。

了因 :
你说得这些数字挺对的。也就是说,99%又分成了53%的勤劳的人,和46%的懒人。

那么如果这百分比再稍微变化一下怎么办呢?比如说:46%的勤劳人,53%的懒人。那么一投票,岂不要乱了套了?

所以当务之急,可能还是要先团结一个再说,要么团结1%的人搞改革,要么团结46%的人搞变革。

倒是发现美国佬挣的钱到哪里去了,原来是要还债去的呀。那么,钱就是给收利息的人拿走了。怪不得圣经说收利息是恶魔呢。这样看来,国内读大学那是轻松很多了,才几千块钱。
leefd at 2/18/2012 00:06 快速引用
xiaoqiang :
You are right.

There is another phrase for this phenomenon: moral hazard.

When lazy, stupid and irresponsible people keep getting rewarded and make a good living that they don't deserve, and jump on the wagon of whining campaign the first moment they feel challenged, you know the society is heading to the wrong direction.


I am deeply troubled by the comments I see here by you, leefd and pompano. The quote above sounds like what a heartless person would say, and I know none of you are one.

Just because you and I are fortunate enough in our lives to make it to the whatever percent doesn't mean you and I have the ground to call those who aren't lazy, stupid and irresponsible. Fifteen percent of the American population actually DO live in poverty, with a disproportionately large number of children. These people would not be in their position today if they had our parents, grew up in our families, went to our schools and got our degrees. Life is simply not fair. From the very beginning.

It's not about math here. It's about how we think. If we can't help the less fortunate, at least we can be kind.

I wish the girl in the picture have her youth, health, job, no kids and no misfortune for ever so she'd never have to worry about getting close the other percentage. Don't know if she's lazy, but posting a photo of herself with such a note on the Internet is definitely irresponsible and maybe, stupid.
开会 at 2/19/2012 00:54 快速引用
说的太好了!



开会 :
xiaoqiang :
You are right.

There is another phrase for this phenomenon: moral hazard.

When lazy, stupid and irresponsible people keep getting rewarded and make a good living that they don't deserve, and jump on the wagon of whining campaign the first moment they feel challenged, you know the society is heading to the wrong direction.


I am deeply troubled by the comments I see here by you, leefd and pompano. The quote above sounds like what a heartless person would say, and I know none of you are one.

Just because you and I are fortunate enough in our lives to make it to the whatever percent doesn't mean you and I have the ground to call those who aren't lazy, stupid and irresponsible. Fifteen percent of the American population actually DO live in poverty, with a disproportionately large number of children. These people would not be in their position today if they had our parents, grew up in our families, went to our schools and got our degrees. Life is simply not fair. From the very beginning.

It's not about math here. It's about how we think. If we can't help the less fortunate, at least we can be kind.

I wish the girl in the picture have her youth, health, job, no kids and no misfortune for ever so she'd never have to worry about getting close the other percentage. Don't know if she's lazy, but posting a photo of herself with such a note on the Internet is definitely irresponsible and maybe, stupid.
小草 at 2/19/2012 12:33 快速引用
with all due respect i think you've completely missed the point.

i don't know why you'd think the girl in the photo is irresponsible or stupid. if you read her story i wouldn't call her someone from a privileged family. far from it, she has no relative except for one who's an addict. she paid for her education through loans and is now paying it back. she doesn't buy anything she can't afford. she doesn't take vacations until her loans are paid back. I think she's DAMN RESPONSIBLE. i suppose you could say she's fortunate to have a job. but then you'd miss the point of the message. and it's starts just like you said life's not fair, but it shouldn't end in a blame game. read her message again. and hers is only one of many who feel that way. google image i'm the 53%. READ THEIR STORIES. you'll find just about everyone of them has a sad story behind or some bad luck thrown at them. but the message is the same, take all the adversities life thrown at you, never give up, never blame others for our misfortune. i think you'll take your comment of irresponsible or stupid back.

since when has the american dream changed from strive your best and get some where to bring down those who are better than yourself. and exactly how long would this last before the whole system collapses. i don't want to racially stereotype. But I drive around I don't see chinese people or mexicans begging on the street. i see hispanics stand on the street corner willing to work for pittance to make a life. i see asians collect cans from trash for recycling. then i see black and white guys with all four limbs moving just standing at the traffic light BEGGING FOR MONEY. you know what else i see? i see people coming to the office on medical due to no income yet wearing bling blings, talking on the latest iphone, treading on nice shoes and driving mercedes. i see people delivering 3 babies in nice private hospitals on tax payer's money and has never held a job down and paid a cent in tax and has no intention of doing so either. comparing to these people i don't know who you could possibly call the girl aforementioned irresponsible or stupid.

One of my partner took the effort of stopping at one of those camps to see what it was all about. what did these people want? He asked three guys. first one said "i want 5 bucks", the second one said "anarchy, down with the government", the third one actually couldn't make any sense despite all his trying. the marijuana smell around him gave a clue as to the cause. how do you justify that the 53% should pick up the millions of dollars of tab these people have run up on the city?

anyways i could go on but you get my point.


leefd at 2/19/2012 12:52 快速引用
and this is the website i got the original picture from. all 58 pages of people with their stories.

http://the53.tumblr.com/

my job is to help people. i don't look at insurance status before i see someone. i don't treat people differently if they have or have not money. but i do despise parasites who are able and yet choose to leach on others. and it's worse when the same parasites then turn around and bitch and moan about the very people they are leaching on.
leefd at 2/19/2012 13:05 快速引用
My anger is mainly targeted at O Big Ben Old Fox in Omaha and other hypocrites of their type who promotes so****lism.

In their grand scheme, a few elites supported by the ??% sheeple, will milk the rest of the country, a.k.a, the middle class, until everyone become parasites. Their approach may appear to be kind, but helps no one.

I cannot make my points sound less heartless. I respect the poor and unfortunate who break their backs working and live from hands to mouth, I will help them if I can. But I cannot spare my disdain towards those who can work honestly but choose to steal from the system instead.


开会 :


I am deeply troubled by the comments I see here by you, leefd and pompano. The quote above sounds like what a heartless person would say, and I know none of you are one.

Just because you and I are fortunate enough in our lives to make it to the whatever percent doesn't mean you and I have the ground to call those who aren't lazy, stupid and irresponsible. Fifteen percent of the American population actually DO live in poverty, with a disproportionately large number of children. These people would not be in their position today if they had our parents, grew up in our families, went to our schools and got our degrees. Life is simply not fair. From the very beginning.

It's not about math here. It's about how we think. If we can't help the less fortunate, at least we can be kind.

I wish the girl in the picture have her youth, health, job, no kids and no misfortune for ever so she'd never have to worry about getting close the other percentage. Don't know if she's lazy, but posting a photo of herself with such a note on the Internet is definitely irresponsible and maybe, stupid.
xiaoqiang at 2/20/2012 11:52 快速引用
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.”

― Alexis de Tocqueville
xiaoqiang at 2/20/2012 23:47 快速引用
可以设想那样一种场景:那个女孩经过几年的努力,发现还是没法还清债务。然后她看到那1%利用资本的游戏规则那么容易就大捞大钱,看到那46%放弃努力充分利用福利规则其实也没有比她赚到的钱少多少,最后她决定can not beat them then join them,也加入了那46%的行列了。

已经听到几个朋友抱怨房子under water依然需要付房贷了,或者refinance需要再次down pay,以前的down pay血本无归。而国家对于房贷的补贴又轮不到他们。国家的补贴哪里来的,还是要他们买单的呀。而那些零首付的人呢,每次补贴都能轮到。所以确实是老实按规则办的人吃亏,能钻规则漏洞的赚便宜,能玩弄规则的则赚大钱。
了因 at 2/21/2012 09:30 快速引用
xiaoqiang :
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.”

― Alexis de Tocqueville


美国这游戏能玩得比较长,是因为不断有外来金融补贴了,基本上每十年一次大补,平常一直小补。

现在如果在地球上玩不转了,可能下一步还可以去天堂找补贴。 Laughing Laughing

地球上的人类阶段性末日,可能就是因为这个原因才来的吧,因为天堂伤不起啊。
了因 at 2/21/2012 09:37 快速引用
昨天聚会说起美国社会积累下来的问题。结果发现美国两个问题,完全属于两个不同的主义。

福利负担过重,那属于socialism走过头的问题。

金融垄断寡头,那属于capitalism走过头的问题。

美国倒不错,两种不同主义的弊端都占全了。 Laughing Laughing
了因 at 2/22/2012 09:51 快速引用
了因 :
昨天聚会说起美国社会积累下来的问题。结果发现美国两个问题,完全属于两个不同的主义。

福利负担过重,那属于socialism走过头的问题。

金融垄断寡头,那属于capitalism走过头的问题。

美国倒不错,两种不同主义的弊端都占全了。 Laughing Laughing


左派走极端没能防止,右派走极端没能防止,打错误的伊拉克战争没能防止,所谓的大选式民主能够防止领导犯错误的监督和纠错功能,好像不灵的嘛。

既然正面的监督功能不灵,负面的拖后腿扯皮功能又太灵了,也许该到大选式民主寿终正寝的时候了吧,别再在那里演戏蒙人了吧。
了因 at 2/24/2012 09:57 快速引用
回楼上Leefd和xiaoqiang:
我觉得你们在说的是三个不同的问题,
一,好吃懒做者
二,累进税制
三,政府税收使用

一,这是勤劳的人都不喜欢的。但是这样的人并没有47%,远没有。所以批评47%是不对的。

二,既然47%的定义是未缴联邦收入税,那他们为什么没缴呢?主要因为他们的收入减去deductions的结果数字只够到最低一档括号。在累进税制下,所有人都是经过了最低一档括号,剩下的收入再逐层适用递增税率的。所以其实53%们也一直享受到的最低括号的免税,和47%享受到的没区别。不如先主动放弃最低括号的免税,再去理直气壮地批评47%。

三,政府税收的使用,华盛顿定法案多受游说系统影响,游说系统代表大公司和富人阶层利益,普通选民能施加影响但是有限。那么1)政府的支出项目和47%的利益很难挂钩,2)政府支出的数额用在大公司和富人身上远比用在普通人身上多。这就是99%和1%的根本对比所在。xiaoqiang的不爽正源于此。

这是三个不同的问题。高调标榜自己为53%的行为,注意我是说行为不是说人,是因为第二个问题没看清楚或者根本在不负责任地胡搅蛮缠或者是上了1%的挑拨离间的当。

回楼上了因:
我觉得你跑题跑挺远的 Laughing
开会 at 2/24/2012 12:36 快速引用
不缴税的人和1%的人是一伙的。

税收改革的正确方向是增加 tax base, 同时 flatten tax rate。任何人 who try to divert from these two goals are 骗子。That's why I say old fox in Omaha is a 骗子。That's also why I support O's effort to increase dividend tax and the bi-partisan effort to lower income tax rate. I also support 我见's proposal to increase tax rate on long term capital gain.

At the end of the day, whoever wants to keep dividend and long term capital gain tax low and increase income tax rate are the enemy of the middle class, no matter which party he belongs to.

Jack Abromoff 的 Capitol Punishment 这本书很好的解释了为什么 government 手中的钱越少越好,值得读一读。

开会 :

三,政府税收的使用,华盛顿定法案多受游说系统影响,游说系统代表大公司和富人阶层利益,普通选民能施加影响但是有限。那么1)政府的支出项目和47%的利益很难挂钩,2)政府支出的数额用在大公司和富人身上远比用在普通人身上多。这就是99%和1%的根本对比所在。xiaoqiang的不爽正源于此。

xiaoqiang at 2/24/2012 15:37 快速引用
开会 :
回楼上Leefd和xiaoqiang:
我觉得你们在说的是三个不同的问题,
一,好吃懒做者
二,累进税制
三,政府税收使用

一,这是勤劳的人都不喜欢的。但是这样的人并没有47%,远没有。所以批评47%是不对的。

二,既然47%的定义是未缴联邦收入税,那他们为什么没缴呢?主要因为他们的收入减去deductions的结果数字只够到最低一档括号。在累进税制下,所有人都是经过了最低一档括号,剩下的收入再逐层适用递增税率的。所以其实53%们也一直享受到的最低括号的免税,和47%享受到的没区别。不如先主动放弃最低括号的免税,再去理直气壮地批评47%。

三,政府税收的使用,华盛顿定法案多受游说系统影响,游说系统代表大公司和富人阶层利益,普通选民能施加影响但是有限。那么1)政府的支出项目和47%的利益很难挂钩,2)政府支出的数额用在大公司和富人身上远比用在普通人身上多。这就是99%和1%的根本对比所在。xiaoqiang的不爽正源于此。

这是三个不同的问题。高调标榜自己为53%的行为,注意我是说行为不是说人,是因为第二个问题没看清楚或者根本在不负责任地胡搅蛮缠或者是上了1%的挑拨离间的当。

回楼上了因:
我觉得你跑题跑挺远的 Laughing


呵呵,那有个专业术语的,叫:和稀泥。 Laughing Laughing

我确实在哪里看到过,美国领取救济的占人口42%。这就不是不用交所得税的百分比了。
了因 at 2/24/2012 16:12 快速引用
失业率8%,领救济的怎么可能有42%?嘻嘻
开会 at 2/24/2012 17:59 快速引用
xiaoqiang :
不缴税的人和1%的人是一伙的。


我写的第二条里已经讲明了,你收入的数额里也有同样数额的一部分没缴税的。那你那部分也是和1%一伙儿的了?
开会 at 2/24/2012 18:08 快速引用
总而言之,想指着别人鼻子说别人没缴税的,请先把W2表上第3格的数字直接填到1040表上第43格报税,然后才有资格批评。

我知道这句话只有少数人能看明白里面的各种算术项目,只讲结果不讲过程是不好的。等哪天有时间了再细细讲吧,嘻嘻。我拿俩大拇指摁那么多汉字出来我容易么我
开会 at 2/24/2012 18:27 快速引用
开会 :
总而言之,想指着别人鼻子说别人没缴税的,请先把W2表上第3格的数字直接填到1040表上第43格报税,然后才有资格批评。

我知道这句话只有少数人能看明白里面的各种算术项目,只讲结果不讲过程是不好的。等哪天有时间了再细细讲吧,嘻嘻。我拿俩大拇指摁那么多汉字出来我容易么我



牛
rogerlee at 2/24/2012 19:16 快速引用
开会 :
失业率8%,领救济的怎么可能有42%?嘻嘻


领失业金和领救济不同,根据统计局的数字,贫困人口在2010年是15.1%, 领food stamp 的家庭有11.9%。
Quincy08 at 2/24/2012 22:30 快速引用
我看1%的人也没没什么可骂的,他们在全世界捞钱,使得53%的人有税交,46%的人被养活。关键是捞到的钱周转回来太慢,甚至呆在外面不回来。
Quincy08 at 2/24/2012 22:42 快速引用
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